almost forgot...also found a website called www.cbe.og stands for christians for biblical equality...very well researched information...thank you...selina from canada...

good day dear sisters & brothers...what is new at onevoice? will we have an on-line study group? do we have any new literature? i am completely new with christadelphians so please bear with me...i simply cannot go to a triune god based congregation of any sort so i was delighted to find other unitarian beliefs...where do i go from here? i am studying different christian belief systems & i must say i find some truth in them all so far...please advise...respectfully & in peace...selina from canada...

greetings dear siblings in christ...i am delighted with this website...i was a devoted jehovah's witness...left because i could not reconcile the love of god with the position of women...never gave up the search...peace be with you...selina from canada...

Your back in the garden again. Still haven't learned your lesson! You still are utterly deceived,believing the serpents lie!!!

Dear Person,

The serpent's lie was "You shall not die", thinking that you could become like God by knowing sin. But let's contrast that lie with the truth of the Garden.

God's truth in the Garden was that the two beings were to be in a relationship so caring, so deeply connected in the wellbeing of the other, so uniform in purpose, so complementary in ability, as to be described by God Almighty as "one flesh". God proclaimed in Genesis, "It is not good for the man to be alone". The willing decision of Adam in the garden was to go along with Eve in sin and then separate himself from her in accountability, to deliberately choose to believe that God could not be appealed to for forgiveness and even to suggest that God was at fault in giving him the cause of sin! This was Adam's misconception and Jesus corrected it: sin comes from within!

Jesus did not repeat any of the mistakes Adam made. Jesus stands beside his imperfect bride, taking an accountability for sin he did not deserve. Jesus did not incriminate others, nor he did insinuate inferior status. Jesus chose to put his trust in the hands of a forgiving Father. Jesus redeemed his bride (us) forever. Jesus not only did what "men" did not do, he perceived the lesson in Genesis regarding "one flesh" and prays for his bride that they and he (and their Heavenly Father) should all be perfectly one.

There were many wrongs committed in the garden. Careful Bible research shows how Jesus deliberately made better choices; all his efforts were toward unity, oneness among believers. If you would follow Christ, we implore you to consider that where deception lies is in teachings or practices that separate believers from one another instead instead of uniting them, that devalue the character or services of other disciples instead of valuing them as God-given talents to be used in Christ's service.

Susie

The serpent said "you shall not surely die" and "you will be like God, knowing good and evil". I don't think any of the authors on this site would accept the serpent's lie as true.

As for being deceived, any person (male or female) is capable of being deceived like Eve was in Genesis 3 and any person (male or female) is capable of wilfully sinning like Adam was. These failures are not gender specific.

Paul makes it clear in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 that the Corinthians (men and women) were on the verge of being deceived like Eve in accepting "another Jesus", "a different spirit" and "a different gospel". He goes on to say in verse 13 that there were "false apostles" and "deceitful workers" and then rebukes the Corinthians in verses 19-20 saying "for you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face." Obviously, these things were not of Jesus' gospel!

I think it would be fair to say that the sponsors and authors represented on this site no longer accept being enslaved to gender partiality, and reject the idea that some should be exalted while others devoured. These practices are the deception. Jesus taught us to all be servants, looking to him as our head and trusting that he is alive and works among us when we call on him.

Janine

Hi Anonymous person,
I have just looked at this site and its good to see Sisters having a point of view on the Word of God, as many it seems, from observing over the years seem to be in the Meeting, but not OF the Meeting, hence, sadly some leave, also those who could of became worthy Sisters leave because they feel not of it.
There are there are many deep thinkers in the Truth, and not are all of them are just the Brethren, so to this person who seems to be running down what others of like faith THAT have an opinion of the Word, don't be shy,if you feel so strongly about what has or is being said here why don't you reveal your name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and don't just hide behind that faceless word that is 'Anonymous' which many like to do in the Faith when they are so upset when it is not in the 'so called' mainstream way of thinking.
The Word of God is alive, and growing, and its good to share ideas, even if you don't have to agree of what has been said- Our light should not be put under a Bushel, but revealed for all to see.... think about that 'Anonymous' before you dismiss this comment (which you will).....

For me, the Christadelphian treatment of women is the single reason I left the Christadelphian Church.

When in the Church, I was an avid believer in the teachings of the Christadelphians. I loved that religion with an intense passion that translated into a daily self-examination and a deep connected relationship with God. When a friend of mine suggested the Christadelphians relationship with women was not actually based in scripture, I was shocked, but vowed immediately to ‘search out the matter.’ I confess that my original plan was to ‘help her understand’ where she was being misled.

What I found in my private study was that Christadelphians were wrong on this issue; that is if scripture and the word of God is our guide. I then undertook to perform much deeper research. Everything I read and saw led me to believe that Christadelphians were misled on this issue. I examined myself. I made my peace with God. I asked for courage. I apologised to the woman who had originally guided me. For the next few months I read, prayed and devoured scripture, trying to work out what to do about the issue.

When I was asked to present the research I had found, I genuinely believed the Christadelphians would be as excited as I was to find that new evidence had been brought to light and we could move closer to the original plans God had for the vision of our Ecclesia’s. I knew there would be difficulties, but just as I had faced my dark night of the soul over this, just as prayer and study and getting closer to God had provided me with answers, I assumed my brothers and sisters in the truth would go through the same self-examination and become excited about the opportunity to move closer to what God and Christ originally intended for followers today.

I was so shocked to find that not only were Christadelphians not interested in responding to the truth of the scriptures, but that they had no intention of fulfilling on their promise to examine the ‘women’s question.’ I recognised that Christadelphians were more mired in the world and traditions of the world (such as misogyny) than they were in scripture. After a few painful years, I accepted this, and left the Church. The one thing that made Christadelphia special for me was that they ‘had’ and ‘loved’ the ‘truth’. When that was no longer true, it was a lie for me to stay.

This is a brief account of how the Christadelphian attitudes to women directly led to me leaving the church. It does not include other issues I have with the way Christadelphians treat women, which took me many more years of counselling to work through and heal.

I would like to add my voice to all those who are finding this "OneVoice" resource so enlightening and liberating.

Keep up the good work dear Sisters... surely the Lord is speaking to us through you in these last days!

Before I become more involved with the Chrisdadelphia, I have been searching for doctrines. Like most churches if one get baptized(moderen day contract) as a Christadelphia one can also get excommunicated. Through email,when asked about the laws of the Christadelphia with members, I get basic bible principle. It left me no choice but to look online and the best site I found was Christadelphia Research which lead me here. Now, if I want to know about a certain religion I suggest anyone to talk with the excommunicated.

Recently through email I was warned that only baptized Christadelphia can partake. The first issues out of this email; who can partake and who cannot partake. The second issue was who passes the bread and wine; men only or women.

First issue, where does it say in the bible that a person who is not a Christadelphian can not partake if she or he is a Christian. Speaking to a multitude, Jesus stated unless you eat my bread and drink my blood(figuratively) you will have eternal life. Also when his statement was made it was toward a mixed multitude groups of Jewish, Gentiles, and who ever was around to here and it was the Jewish sect that spoke against it. Later,the main criteria would be to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God because of one partook without that belief there would be a penalty like Judas faced. I can now say that non believer or new person into Christ he to can partake but search his heart to make sure he believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Eighty years later during Paul's time, I do not think that concept has change. In Paul's passover(last supper) it was a mixed group of people. Some thinking it would be a place to have a meal. When Paul stated that they should eat before coming this meeting it would have been to the brothers and sister as well as strangers and new ones. In my view when it comes to the passover the only criteria should be that you not partake if you have doubt about Christ being the son of God. Also, it should have nothing to do with being baptized or a member of a certain Christian sect but that another Christian member should partake. It would only be an adversary who would want someone not to partake. Adversary would not want people to believe in Jesus Christ would not want people to partake. Christadelphia seem to think they are the ones who chooses eternal life for another person when in fact it is only Jesus who will judge.

Second issue, when visiting many sects of Christian churches the one thing I noticed is that men during communion would stand up very proud and give every one the bread and wine. Never have I witnessed women in this role. I believe that it is wrong because during Paul's time it was a mixed group of people and who really knows who past the bread and wine. Do you think it would be wrong to say that women did not stand up with men and pass the offerings? It would make more sense that they would give the offerings as it would have been woman's role.

If people want to get technical about passover,please pass the bitter herbs. Typically, bitter herbs represents the curse on man. Antiypical, Jesus said at passover how long will he eat bitter herbs.

You are wolves in sheeps clothing for some but to me you are just plain wolves, bringing in and promoting wrong doctrine within the ecclesia to satisfy the flesh and its desires!! God's word can not be modernized to satisfy fleshly needs, and keep with the ever changing times of this world! liberty, equality, fraternity is not bible teaching! A sisters role is vast and great, as the bible teaches!! As a Christadelphian sister I find this site to be offensive and altogether heartbreaking to hear how much the ways of the world are creeping in to the ecclesia and then attempting to use scripture to back up worldly thinking! God can not be modernized he is always the same!! You are doing such a great disservice to the Christadelphian body and I am so sorry for you and I pray that this type of thinking does not spread any farther!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear sister

Thank you for your prompter to review the ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ passage of scripture, Matthew 7. It is a very good chapter and my reading and meditating upon Jesus’ instructions have certainly helped me today. I have included the following points from that chapter for your interest:

• How I judge others is how I will be judged.
• As I measure it out to others it will be measured out to me.
• Do not concern myself with the speck that is in the eye of someone else, but concentrate on ensuring my own vision is clear.
• Do not throw what is precious in my life before those who will trample it down because they could destroy me.
• Ask, seek and knock because my Father wants to give me heavenly blessings.
• Treat others as I want to be treated because this sums up God’s laws and instructions.
• Many will not find the path which leads to life.
• Be aware of those who appear gentle but are ferocious in their treatment of others.
• You will know who these people are because their actions and words will reveal it.
• Those who do not bear fruit (do not love) will be cut down and cast away.
• Knowing Jesus means bearing his fruit. Many will think they know him, but will not be received by him.
• I need to be built on a firm foundation of Jesus (my cornerstone and vine which enables me to bear fruit) or I will be washed away in the storm.
• It is Jesus who speaks with authority so I should listen to his instructions for what is important concerning my God.

The wrong doctrine you mention, according to the context of the “wolf in sheep’s clothing” chapter relates to those who do not bear fruit for their fellow. The first and foremost fruit of the Spirit is love. Jesus taught us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves as the greatest commands. This instruction of God is never changing. "God is love" is timeless. This is the ultimate doctrine and practice rolled into one. If I have knowledge about all kinds of things but without love then I am nothing (1 Cor 13:3).

If the website which I sponsor does not lovingly treat others then I accept that it needs adjustment. Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous, does not brag, is not arrogant (1 Cor 13:4) and as I take those words seriously, I will do my best to respond to your message according to those directives.

I recognize that I need to be patient with others in their understanding. Others have been patient with me in my learning and for that I am thankful. I accept that, for some, the scriptural views presented on our website are hugely challenging. They confront our traditional paradigm and can give rise to anxiety and stress. Some like yourself also see this as a result of what is going on around us in the world. But contrary to that belief, the views put forward on this site are built on the directive of treating others as we want to be treated (Matt 7:12); without division in the body (1 Cor 12:25); and submitting one to another in reverence of Christ (Eph 5:21). This is a foundation of love - Godly values, not worldly ones!

We all need to be careful about wanting to be different for the sake of it. Whilst some like yourself may consider that the words liberty, equality and fraternity are of ‘the world’ and not scripture, we have verses which should lead us to be very cautious lest we seem not to be taking the Bible seriously:

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Without going into any detail about these quotes, we should accept that there is at least some liberty when we are in Christ, we should accept that there is at least some equality in Christ and we should accept that there is some fraternity, when ‘frater’ is the Latin word for brother.

In kindness, I pray for the calming influence of Jesus to help you in your life as I pray for the same thing for myself. We all need Jesus to help us face challenging and difficult circumstances.

I hope, in time, you will no longer see this site as offensive but an important educational resource to help followers of Jesus discover a better way to live; founded on love.

Your sister in Christ
Janine Hennig

Dear Sister. Let's start with fraternity. If the bible does not teach fraternity, then in what sense or for what reason do we call each "brother and sister"? Why do we call God our Father and why does Jesus say of those who do his will... "these are my brothers and my sisters" (among other titles)?

If liberty from the sentence of death is not a part of the Gospel, then why does Paul use the phrase so frequently? Why does the Bible say we have been set "'free", and given liberty from the law of sin and death? And why does the bible say for we have great liberty in the Gospel?

If there is no equality in the Gospel then Paul lies outright and Jesus deceives us when he says the Gospel is offered to all peoples without exception and without price. Paul, inspired by Jesus, betrays us all when he says in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, Male nor Female for we are all one in Christ. If these words to not teach equal standing before God, equal access to salvation, equal service based on faith in Christ Jesus, then what did Paul mean by saying these things?

It is easy to make blanket statements to accuse people whom you do not know of modern thinking, but if you want any credibility for your position you must offer more than condemnation; you must defend these assertions biblically and I suggest you cannot. You must contradict what the whole of the Gospel wholeheartedly preaches: complete equality, profound liberty, and deep fraternity.

You wrote: "God can not be modernized he is always the same!!". I agree with you. But I would also say that God can be misunderstood by us fallible human beings. As Christadelphians we know that for 1500 years or more the word of God was misunderstood in some major ways and people believed in things like the Trinity, and going to heaven, purgatory and hell. But at times people began to question whether these and other doctrines were really in God's Word. Among them of course were people like Dr. Thomas who said that it was important to try to understand what God was actually saying, and to believe it.
The process of seeking truth, of seeking to understand God's Word didn't end with Dr. Thomas. He began the process, but it is up to us to continue it. What you have on this site are writings from folks who have come to believe that we have misunderstood what God's Word has said about this subject of the participation of sisters.
This is more than just an academic subject, there are many sisters, young primarily, but also old, who are very frustrated and in pain. They see a world where women are doing all kinds of things, almost everything that men do. And they wonder why all that changes when they walk in the ecclesial hall. We owe it to them to make VERY sure we are Biblically correct on this subject before we tell them they have to submit themselves to the limited participation we currently allow.
I hope you will continue to read the articles on this website, and I hope that you will see that the authors of the articles are not "wolves" but rather trying to protect the sheep.

I believe Sister, that you have answered your own criticism of this wonderful movement that is growing apace, not only within our own CD communities.... but in other faith communities also.

You write.... >>God can not be modernized he is always the same!!

Dear Sister,

You write quite emotively and claim that "OneVoice" is ....>>>bringing in and promoting wrong doctrine within the ecclesia to satisfy the flesh and its desires!!

Sister, I can see that this is very disturbing to you. God has already begun a great work in your heart. Please continue to pray ernestly for an open heart and mind regarding these issues. Please also continue to pray for the people you are so unhappy with on this issue.

The spirit of God is moving in our world! That is very exciting to me :) I heard a good saying recently. "God loves us way to much to leave us the way we are." I thank God daily for controversy, it is the only way we grow. Being stagnant just makes us rotten, but being challenged and stretched and tested makes us stronger and hopefully more Christlike. Please understand I am not chritisizing you in any way, I am hoping that you will continue to examine this issue intensly. We are each on a journy towards the end goal of salvation. May your journey be fruitfull and blessed. Love in Christ

I had no idea that there are sisters who speak in ecclesias. I had always thought that was a essential Christadelphian belief. I don't read a lot of Christo magazines, but the ones I have had only articles by brothers so I thought that was another area that comes under the teaching and speaking that sisters are excluded from.

I am a sister who is content with my current role in the ecclesia.
I don't like people to assume that because I am a sister I am supporting the new teachings regarding women's roles.
I support only what God has set out in His Word.
After reading and stumbling across alot of articles centring on women speaking and reading and doing more within the ecclesia, I am going to look into this more, to try to find the answers.
I am deeply troubled that this is all heading down the wrong path. What if you are wrong?

thank you for this site...as a former bible student it has been impossible for me to join ANY church professing trinitarianism...my boyfriend is getting baptized as a catholic in april...how i long for community...i stumbled upon christadelphians through internet research...i was very excited...until i read the traditional roles of women in the church...so i kept looking and came upon this site...once again i am feeling hopeful...thank you again...with respect & in peace...S(f)

Dear Brothers and Sisters at Sistersspeak, I wrote this small sketch after thinking hard about the line "An intelligent wife is intelligent enough to never let her husband know how intelligent she is." Thank you for your work here. I hope many relationships will blossom because of the freedom you offer to people to relate on equal ground. Please feel free to use or ignore what I have written. With love in Christ, B.


O Brother who art thou? Hello friend, we play together, you like the trucks, I like the sand. You catch a crab and show it to me. We laugh at it waving it's claws helplessly. Then I tell you that I think the crab is hot and scared, so together we return it to a rock pool. You spot a tiny octopus and tell me about the venom it contains. It could kill me, you say, but you know how to keep me alive if it did bite me. I feel glad that you are my friend, you show me things, you listen to me and you can look after me. I feel safe with you. Time passes. Together we learn about a higher calling, a reason to be kind and good, and together we are inspired to be like Jesus. We respond to this calling and get baptised into the family of Christ. We encourage each other to be strong in our faith and examine our motives and convictions. We meet together to worship God and to remember the ultimate sacrifice that Christ made for us. While we do this we take bread and wine and pray together. Time passes. We marry each other. We sit together, reading the bible. You tell me that your last exhortation was not as good as your friend can do. I think making this comparison is a mistake. I observe an unhealthy anxiety in you and I want to share your burden. I know a passage in the bible that can help you. I want to teach you to compare yourself only to Jesus. I know that learning this will help you. I say I'd like to read Galatians together. You decline. You'd rather read Hebrews as it is the topic of your next study and you are feeling the strain already. You are my husband. We read Hebrews instead. What question will I ask you to help you learn? Or do I just lead by example? Time passes. You are bored and unstimulated. I have stopped forming opinions as I can't share them without teaching you. We both find other avenues of interest. You don't know me any more. Why did we marry? We were better as equals. Then we could both share our opinions. B (f) September 2009

Really impressed with the Sistersspeak website. Particularly love 52 minutes into the Q&A session [of The Other Side of the Story] - I gave her a spontaneous standing ovation and by the sounds of it, so did her audience! - 29/04/09

I just want to say thank you so much to all the brothers and sisters who have contributed to this site. What a refreshing resource that this community so desperately needs. I'm a young sister from XXXX, and I have been struggling with the role of women in the church for some time now. As a university student, I'm trained to think critically and I can't help but notice the constant contradictions in doctrine and practice. I've noticed that young people in general, and young women (from pre-teens to teens, to young adults) in particular are not getting the support they need on a lot of issues so pertinent in today's world… The biblical studies here are great, and I think it would be so beneficial for many young girls and women to consider different opinions and know there is support out there. - 24/04/09

I would like to say a HUGE thank you for TOSOTS [The Other Side of the Story]. The material presented was unlike anything I had ever heard before, and it opened up my mind to many new possibilities. Quite scary to think that a fundamental aspect of our church might not be what Jesus and our Father intended! It was an extremely thoughtful, sincere and well researched presentation from all of the speakers. I should also admit that I did not expect so much scripture to be quoted and to be the foundation, so that is to my chagrin. I'm not sure what the future will hold in our church re: women's roles, but I know that I'm blessed to have heard the "other side". - 08/04/09

I often watched with interest how a debate on women's roles in church centres on Greek and Hebrew text. For those of us who aren't linguistic scholars I often wonder what is actually being said. It's one thing for people to quote Greek or Hebrew in attempts to sway others on Bible teaching (history will show you can prove any argument taking this intellectual approach). It's quite another to simply step back and take a big picture logical assessment of Bible messages and themes in comparison to living the life of Christ in each of our societal contexts today.

I noted recently a comment posted on a website on the absurdity of the rule that says a woman cannot speak or teach (inside the church walls) while at the same time have female members who are "molecular biologists" teaching and speaking at a professional level, as an example. It astonishes me that there is an associated belief structure that says that theology and doctrine apply to what occurs within the walls of the church building but somehow don't apply at other times. Bearing in mind "other times" are likely to be the greater proportion of a believer's life, this approach tends to produce a Christian life of "orthodoxy" within the four walls but a vastly different set of lifestyle codes for the rest of the week.

How does this play out? It means brothers often encourage and endorse women exercising authority in their work place, are subordinate to them in the sense they report to women corporately, have no issue with wives, sisters or mothers exercising authority in day to day issues, and enjoy radio, TV and newspaper print regardless of the gender at the source of the media.

For sisters who believe they should be silent and not teach in church it means at other times (the greater proportion of their life) they teach (most teachers in the education system in the west are female including members from our own church community), many clearly exercise the greater proportion of authority and control in their households and extended families, and are vocal within their local communities speaking out against issues they believe are important. One simple question then. When does "church" start and finish? The answer for the believer described above is that their "Christ life" is only the few hours in church each week.

The other times are not Christ life and their church doctrines simply get turned off when they leave the building and "go out into the world". Forget the debate on roles of the sexes in church... there are far bigger issues at stake here... issues associated with a lack of understanding of what it means to follow Jesus in all your life (rather than just in "church"). Now back to the Greek and the Hebrew. - 03/12/08.

I have recently been told about your website, so I've been reading and continue to read through the articles… starting with the McHaffies' writings. I am very excited about it all, as it gels with what I've been thinking, and I found their articles very well reasoned. I am looking forward to reading some more…. I think it's great that you have contributions from both brothers & sisters on the website, as it gives it some balance in the eyes of those who want to think that it's only sisters being vocal and "rebellious". - 20/10/08

I want to quickly register my appreciation and support for this site. I really appreciate the thoughtful approach, the information provided, and the clear organization. At the same time, I feel a tightness in my chest as I realize that what is so obvious to me – Jesus' overturning of the "traditions of men" – is still an undiscovered teaching in Christadelphia…. Father, may this website be the beginning of a non-violent movement toward building the non-discriminatory community which Jesus showed us and pointed us toward…. This issue, I am coming to understand is not specifically about women, it is about people. Jesus' approach to all people, every individual was unequivocal; he simply made no distinction between human beings, males, females, prostitutes, heads of congregations, Roman authorities, tax-collectors – none. He approached every human as a human…. As one who endeavours to be a disciple of Jesus, I have come to the point where I can no longer accept distinguishing between individual humans…. So, I am coming to understand that my advocacy for equality is not about women per se, it is about my own practice as a disciple. To practice discrimination/distinction and preach non-distinction puts me in an untenable position before my master. 30/09/08